Robot Slavery

Transcript

00:00:00Welcome to Think Different, Think AI, the podcast from Mark and Jens.

00:00:07Two technology-loving minds who not only talk about artificial intelligence but live it.

00:00:14Here you will find clear classifications, real practical insights, and a fresh perspective on what is possible.

00:00:20Understandable, critical, and always with a wink.

00:00:24Food for thought, for a chuckle, and above all, for discussing.

00:00:47I want your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle.

00:00:51Hey and welcome to a new episode of Pink Diffen, Trink A.I.

00:01:00I'm Jens, with me is my co-host, I almost wanted to say, but it is the co-host.

00:01:07Join in.

00:01:09Hello Jens, nice that you corrected it. Thank you.

00:01:12Today we are having our episode all about robotics.

00:01:20We have to have a player, there are dystopias about how robots could develop, and today we'll take a look.

00:01:31Well, mostly on the positive part and on what is currently happening in the area of household robots, so not much about industrial robots.

00:01:42Arms or other things that have been around for quite some time might also go...

00:01:47not so much, maybe the topics will also wander off to some other robots

00:01:51that walk around in the form of dogs, in drone form, or something else.

00:01:55Today we're looking at household robots, because there were a couple of things in the last weeks.

00:01:59Announcement from larger players in the world that they are about to deliver

00:02:05household robots which, if I understood correctly, Mark,

00:02:10are already being ordered by the first, especially Americans, I believe, who always

00:02:14have money on the side and want to bring household robots home.

00:02:18I must admit, when this

00:02:25Neo was suddenly shown on social media, I initially thought, look, a person in large tights

00:02:31so in the style of Robin Hood in gray, but no, it is actually a robot with

00:02:38one, maybe you can turn a bit around the Söderchen, who kind of promises

00:02:43or where the ruler promises to do household chores with you at home. And before

00:02:49you dive into that, my first reaction was also, can I order this in Germany too?

00:02:54Can I possibly get it through some distributor? I haven't quite

00:02:59arrived at the point where I would like to be, because I find it quite

00:03:05This is really a piece of the future, that you seemingly get it delivered to

00:03:10your home.

00:03:11At least the advertisement promises you that.

00:03:12Definitely.

00:03:13And I mean, we should definitely discuss all the products that we have today

00:03:17in this podcast, because there are different robot manufacturers that are now

00:03:21active in the area of humanoid robots, or human-like robots.

00:03:25But I believe that it is a compelling condition, I think, in the first

00:03:31step, that these robots we bring home also resemble humans, because

00:03:36they naturally promise to respond in the best adapted form, as a human can,

00:03:41especially in situations like when the trash can has fallen over and the trash

00:03:45needs to be picked up, or when my laundry needs to be ironed or

00:03:50folded. Because that is what you see in this promotional video. So

00:03:54regarding the Neo robot you are describing, we should definitely include the show notes,

00:03:58the video, in case you haven't seen it yet. You can actually see how the robot

00:04:03carefully adjusts a cushion on the couch. Also thoughtfully puts things from one laundry basket

00:04:09into another or folds t-shirts. Rinses, all sorts of things.

00:04:15The thing honestly looks really cool. I'm now mixing

00:04:19a bit of stochastic, stochastic box. The first music boxes I had from Tim

00:04:25were always from either Amazon or I don't know, Google, they looked similar.

00:04:29I think they were these small Google boxes that had a similar relation. This

00:04:34relation is clever because it helps a bit to create a

00:04:38fabric that also accounts for the existing mechatronics underlying it,

00:04:47meaning all the components a robot has to move, they produce

00:04:50of course some sounds. This is somewhat minimized by the mesh that’s on top,

00:04:54then there's a case, and then there's also this fabric cover,

00:04:58the thing just looks cute. I don't know how well you can clean it,

00:05:03but that's another topic. I heard you can wash the outer cover.

00:05:07I find it funny when you start undressing this robot. Yeah, very hot topics.

00:05:14But like I said, it's definitely a good idea because it somewhat muffles

00:05:17the sounds a bit. You still have some typical machine noises,

00:05:21which you probably want to hear. I haven't experienced the thing live yet,

00:05:24we really have to check it out because we can see it here, just as a

00:05:28device, but they did a good job, it has smooth

00:05:33rounded edges, at first glance there's nothing that could be really

00:05:37dangerous, the thing looks cute, I don't even know how big it is

00:05:42from what I know... 1.65 meters, 6.65 centimeters, that's a cool

00:05:47specification, so from the side 165 centimeters, that seems to be the right description.

00:05:53Smaller than the robot N, how do you find that from Neurer, the German provider?

00:06:00Yes, you asked me before the show and I came up with the idea...

00:06:03Come again. He is 1.80.

00:06:061.80?

00:06:071.80, yes.

00:06:081.80, right?

00:06:09Yes, already.

00:06:10I am of that height, but it’s not always about height.

00:06:13Accordingly, the robot, the one we actually got into, is supposed to help you with household tasks and they have really done quite well so far in the whole optics of the commercial video, where it goes into a super stylish apartment, it fits color-wise perfectly with the robot, the apartment seems to be AI-generated or built around this robot, you think so when you watch the commercial video, but that is already a future, as you just said, that you somehow bring home.

00:06:39That is actually something we only knew from the Jetsons or other things,

00:06:46or such a start-up again, if we look back at Data or something like that,

00:06:49a humanoid robot that can really take over tasks out there.

00:06:52That is a bit cool, I have to say, and impressive,

00:06:58that we have actually reached this moment suddenly.

00:07:02We talked about autonomous cars somehow a bit again,

00:07:06There is the feeling, that is a bit stuck, then the topic of drones has come up a bit

00:07:10and now suddenly, there were these dogs, then there were years, you might still know

00:07:15these whole videos from Boston Dynamics around the Atlas robot,

00:07:21which then did crazy jumps and parkour moves, but it always looked a bit,

00:07:28you know, still like a machine connected with cables, which in principle

00:07:32Yes, the old Atlas, some of those were really old models, goodness.

00:07:37The mix has brought both humanoid form and this dog form out in that spot.

00:07:43But let’s take a quick look because I hinted at it earlier, before we dive too deep,

00:07:47maybe a few more sentences about the technical data.

00:07:50So, I'll link the video in the show notes as well.

00:07:53There is actually a test from the Wall Street Journal where someone was able to try out this robot.

00:07:58You can really hear how the work with this kind of internal pulley system, well, 'pulley' might be too

00:08:06unprofessional a term, but they work with a procedure that they say is somehow quiet and particularly

00:08:14precise to operate for them. The thing weighs only about 30 to 40 kilos, has a 4-hour battery life, can

00:08:21carry about 25 kilos, but they mention a lifting capacity of 70.

00:08:29They also distinguish quite sharply what it can do, it can lift things from the ground,

00:08:33and what it can do, let's say, not over you while you’re sleeping,

00:08:37to carry it and then let it fall on you, because they also explain in the explanatory video with the Wall Street Journal,

00:08:45that the device must not lift sharp objects,

00:08:48that the device must not carry heavy things, so it doesn’t crush you with them.

00:08:53And with the software that you get as the owner of the little creature,

00:09:00you are able to say there are areas where the robot is not allowed to go. So if

00:09:07you, for example, say, yes, I want my bathrobe to be brought to the bathroom,

00:09:10then you could have said beforehand, no, the bathroom is off-limits. You have to stand

00:09:15still beforehand, my little butler. So those are a few things I found quite

00:09:20nice explanation, of course I'm happy to share that again. They also said that the

00:09:25hands are very water-resistant because he can also wash, while the rest of the robot is

00:09:31not quite as water-resistant. So it shouldn't be allowed to swim, and he probably can't

00:09:35do that either, not even with aids that we might discuss later. Otherwise,

00:09:42the thing responds to voice or to the app that you get as a

00:09:49companion app with it, and earlier we talked about the topic.

00:09:53it's available, it can be ordered, can you buy it, but what does it cost? You can

00:09:57buy it with a $200 down payment for $20,000 or rent it for $490

00:10:03and it's supposed to be delivered starting next year, and supposedly

00:10:09it has a three-year warranty. When it comes to Europe, they say something like

00:10:14it could be 2027 that they try to expand to Europe, and here you can get it in blue, beige, and

00:10:22black. So, and from the side, yes, they promised it as a household item and that’s totally

00:10:28funny. When you see this commercial here, a lot is being said, and he's carrying, as you

00:10:32said, he's carrying boxes and watering the flowers and feeding the dog, and you can ask

00:10:38him to please take your cup out of your hand and put it in the dishwasher.

00:10:42Or he should go to the door and open the door. Or he should help the kids with their homework

00:10:47or he explained to an older gentleman he was talking to that the glasses he was looking for

00:10:51are currently hanging around his neck. And then you think, that’s great,

00:10:55but somewhere in the commercial, they've hidden it quite well. Yes, yes, so in complicated,

00:11:00situations, there, yes, an operator takes over. That's quite funny, yes,

00:11:06because in a report from Volst, it came out that these difficult situations today are all

00:11:11remote control meaning all the robot's situations today are basically operated remotely while you also

00:11:18have to say that it will only be officially available starting next year, but that means

00:11:25someone is sitting somewhere with a controller in hand, playing classic games, and

00:11:32instead of the Isaac now playing Fortnite, he is essentially playing the game of life at your place.

00:11:38That’s this other interesting aspect. I was also approached about this,

00:11:42when I shared a commercial video happily and euphorically in our

00:11:49group. I was directly told, but this is a bit of modern slavery,”

00:11:55was the response.

00:11:58overnight and that is only connected to the robot and then I was also informed that this thing is basically exactly that

00:12:04is clearly stated by the co-founder of the company, yes

00:12:09we intervene in almost every situation with an operator, basically

00:12:17This is now broken down in the initial phase, it has its downside and I believe that it is also

00:12:23okay to be transparent about it. But honestly, that means I'm now buying

00:12:29a robot, and it has to be said bluntly for shift work, because I want to

00:12:36be able to operate the robot 24/7 and that requires multiple people, so there must also be multiple

00:12:42humans on standby all the time in the background, so that in case of emergency I can say, now fold

00:12:48the T-shirt. That’s a bit crazy, that I'm using a mechanical,

00:12:56how was it again, Mechanical Turk, back then, the first faked robot, that was,

00:13:06for those who don't know, that was somehow in the 18th century or something like that,

00:13:11it must have been, a highly elaborate machine that had a chess computer, a chessboard

00:13:16and it was mechanically operated by, I believe, a pipe-smoking robot,

00:13:22who sat behind it, who then moved the chess pieces and one could open the

00:13:29machine from the sides, and you could see that there were complicated

00:13:32gears and such inside, but through skillful, hidden doors and rooms,

00:13:38it was made so that someone could sit underneath and he actually moved

00:13:43the chess pieces mechanically, so that this robot moved above and

00:13:49played many chess matches against also famous people around the world, and then the thing also toured,

00:13:53until the whole subject was somewhat figured out,

00:13:57also played chess and won at that time. Yes, actually super bizarre.

00:14:03I believe Amazon has also taken up the Mechanical Turk topic again,

00:14:06because we have a process of reduction or something like that, we have always had this during the time.

00:14:09You could scan products at Amazon with the app and then you could basically,

00:14:14people in the background could take over this scan for you.

00:14:18It’s roughly like this company that Microsoft recently acquired with the motto

00:14:22oh look, they can program software with AI, they somehow

00:14:26bought thousands of Indians or whatever, a company, and you think,

00:14:29well, okay, right? So history repeats itself, right?

00:14:33Yes, that was like a snub, that was like a lovebird clone,

00:14:36I think the question was, and that was then rated quite quickly within 1.5

00:14:39years.

00:14:40Then it was actually right with some programmers in the background who were a

00:14:44bit cheaper than if we had both done it, the programming course

00:14:47written for ourselves.

00:14:48That’s quite interesting.

00:14:49But not so...

00:14:50But now we have this again, in principle we are bringing something mechanical into the house,

00:14:58that can act autonomously in complicated situations, but is actually still remotely

00:15:04controlled.

00:15:05It probably has to learn first how you live at home. Just that is already a post.

00:15:10Yes, he says that too. I think it also has to, we must now also make sure

00:15:14that they don’t promise false things. They do say that in principle they need this data

00:15:18from you at home first to better understand how the house works. So that means,

00:15:22despite all the advertising flash, we are still in such an early form of robotics,

00:15:28that is unleashed into the outside world from industrial facilities, where everything is very, very clearly defined,

00:15:35there is still a bit of a hindrance or let’s say a,

00:15:41human envelope that is just there to act in case of emergency, but of course also on the

00:15:48other side, so that lessons can be learned from these movements that are carried out.

00:15:53So, I’ve seen another video in the context of this podcast,

00:15:57where you see a robot stocking shelves in, like, Tokyo or something. And even that

00:16:05is basically carried out against the background of such an operator. If we

00:16:08now imagine that I simulate this in a real-world scenario repeatedly, then

00:16:13robots will naturally be able to unlearn such things and eventually conduct tasks autonomously.

00:16:17That means, now the critical downside of this is

00:16:23of course, yeah, someone is working for like $3.70, who could take over a job,

00:16:29which perhaps eliminates the job on the other side, because it can now be done by robots.

00:16:34and it also effectively eliminates itself, because the robots have learned so much from him.

00:16:39or have learned so much from his colleagues, that in principle this task

00:16:43no longer needs to be managed remotely. That is what is currently happening.

00:16:45That's what you mean, that someone slips into this digital world for cheaper money, to fold laundry or pair socks somewhere else.

00:16:58That's one thing, but if you look at, for example, this Figure 3, they want to produce 12,000 devices, so robots, per year or reach up to 100,000 in four years, something like that.

00:17:14something like that. If you calculate that, and you say, there's the Tesla Optimus, there's the

00:17:19Figurespray, there's the Neo, there is definitely a demand for exactly these operators

00:17:26given, those who operate the thing, because I mean, whether the thing folds your

00:17:31laundry is one thing. I would say that, okay, there are people who provide

00:17:36professional household services, they are affected by this, but you can also use this thing here

00:17:41you can set it up just like a reception. You can have the thing bring you food and drinks in the restaurant.

00:17:47You can set the thing to Forte. You can have it do a whole lot of things. And suddenly

00:17:53people are able to say, regardless of whether it costs a lot or not, you can just say

00:17:59look, I can now offer my service as

00:18:03a receptionist.

00:18:04But I’ll just sit here and take the shift from 9 to 2 at Hotel ABC.

00:18:11And from 2 PM to 5 PM, I tidy up here and there, and from 6 PM onwards, I do this, that, and the other; this really democratizes the topic of physical labor for such issues.

00:18:23But of course, with the catch you are then not only competing with, let's say, neighbors, but with the world as well.

00:18:32Just this topic, it says after the data protection, so with Neo they also explained in the film screen,

00:18:37that they pixelate faces and gender characteristics, which is already very nice, so the topic is please pass me,

00:18:44my bathrobe you can at least hope that the system doesn't make screen videos of you.

00:18:51But on the other hand, there is definitely the whole issue of regulatory data protection and you know what,

00:18:58If that were to really take hold, considering the demand in the European area, then perhaps one could say, folks, pay attention.

00:19:05Such operators need to have, I don’t know, some kind of data protection training and you know what,

00:19:12so that you might not have to spend 3.50 euros elsewhere, but perhaps a bit more as a service provider,

00:19:19to provide this service, you know, as someone who wants this service, in that sense.

00:19:25But I find that

00:19:27crazy, what that, if it, let’s say, takes root and if that, if that, yes, if others also come up with the idea and say,

00:19:33oh yeah, well, if it works at Neuhe, then let’s do it too, because we also want to learn in practice,

00:19:39what that means for this, for this indeed

00:19:42large market. I mean, how many people are bringing you food and drinks and

00:19:46do you encounter checking tickets or something?

00:19:48I'm not saying that these are higher or lower-value jobs, but I'm just saying,

00:19:52A robot can also do that, and it can also be done by someone who is sitting somewhere, who doesn't have to be on site.

00:19:58On the other hand, in elderly care, sorry, I believe you would be glad to have every help you can get.

00:20:03Yes, of course, there are quite a few companies here, and I think we are definitely behind in our list, looking at a few robot companies from Germany, from Europe and such, + **[00:20:12]** who are currently active in fields like healthcare and are doing good things.

00:20:12who are currently working in areas like healthcare and such, and are doing really good things there.

00:20:17So yes, they have had something like this for dementia patients for a while, like a little

00:20:22seal that looks like a seal, a small robot that really helps with loneliness.

00:20:26So there are people who basically no longer receive visitors, where the actual

00:20:30human care might not be sufficient to take care of these people.

00:20:32A robot can also help with that, to at least absorb some of the loneliness.

00:20:38So there are also positive aspects.

00:20:39And even if it's just an operator for me, but how is it an operator issue?

00:20:43Well, we can just get to the point, but you just wanted to say something.

00:20:45It's all not new, remember when it was about self-driving trucks?

00:20:52The topic was that on the highway trucks can drive themselves well,

00:20:55but on country roads it gets tricky, the operators can practically switch on as soon as it goes to a country road,

00:20:59and then the thing can drive itself.

00:21:02We have all experienced that from the side, as you just mentioned with maybe also

00:21:06dementia and older people, the topic that you can engage with something like that,

00:21:11which stands on two legs, helps you and you can talk to it, because

00:21:16no matter if you are speaking with the large language model on the robot or if you would talk to the

00:21:20operator, thanks to current translation technology, practically anyone in

00:21:28the world can communicate with you in good German or in whatever language you are proficient in.

00:21:33talk and interact with you.

00:21:36That's really, I actually find it surprising about this advertisement

00:21:41and all that stuff, even when you think about what would really happen if you

00:21:45got a foothold.

00:21:46My goodness.

00:21:47Yes, that's it.

00:21:48We're there, I think this is also another topic that we briefly need to

00:21:51touch on.

00:21:52We're now also brought into this estimation moment, because this topic is so

00:21:58about language and understanding the world, you know, also the multimodal AI models that

00:22:03we have, which can not only understand language but visually understand the world as well and

00:22:10that are now also equipped with sensors. There are also robot models, especially in this area

00:22:16of the fingers, that is, the sensitivity we have with our fingers. There are now even

00:22:22approaches where dedicated AI models for an individual fingertip exist to truly distinguish,

00:22:29touched objects; if I throw a bottle, plastic or glass, to the robot, it must be able to catch it with

00:22:36a different dynamics at the moment it touches it. This means, it's similar to

00:22:41us; sometimes our brain, the central nervous system, can’t process it that quickly,

00:22:45which is why we can, through the nerve cells we have towards our

00:22:49extremities, the fingers, react much faster and still do it

00:22:53correctly or react. It also doesn’t react if we somehow step into a small hole

00:22:58because the muscles and nerve cells in the foot respond immediately, as that

00:23:02would take way too long for our brain to react.

00:23:04So there are a ton of things that simply come from the fact that we now have such a breakthrough

00:23:09with AI, which has given a tremendous boost to the entire topic of robotics as well.

00:23:15.

00:23:16Now, if we talk about the operator topic, we should also briefly touch on the privacy issue

00:23:19perhaps come back to that, but let's set the operator topic aside for a moment, it is

00:23:22of course still the case that we are truly at the beginning of this time where robots can actually

00:23:31exist alongside us in our world, without needing to have, like industrial robots in the past, a

00:23:38certain safety framework where the arm can somehow carry things from A to B, so to speak.

00:23:44In the past, it was always programmed, then the topic came up that I could

00:23:48basically show the robot how to do it, and it would imitate the movements. Now we are at a point,

00:23:53where the robot, when equipped with camera sensors, actually understands the world

00:23:59and can even carry out tasks based on voice commands. So theoretically, I have to tell a robot

00:24:04can't explain anymore. As I said, it's still very much in the discovery phase,

00:24:08everything still takes a bit of time, which is why there is also the operator. But theoretically

00:24:11I could say, now in the room where I currently am, I could tell the robot

00:24:15please clear the bottle off the table and throw away the rest that you see,

00:24:21which belongs in the trash into the trash. Then it would be able to do that, basically,

00:24:28because he understands what I mean by trash, what I mean by clearing away. No, he would understand,

00:24:33that he would have to look around to see if there is something like a trash formula perhaps in

00:24:37the vicinity or I probably have to go into the room that people call the kitchen,

00:24:41because that’s usually where the waste system is, I have to be asked about that.

00:24:45All these things are also influenced by,

00:24:48I don’t even want to call it the chess tip moment,

00:24:50but rather just this phase we have now reached,

00:24:54where we can represent many senses, many considerations,

00:24:59many understandings of how the world works,

00:25:01actually in neural networks.

00:25:04This is, I believe, giving a boost to the topic of robotics that we are currently seeing.

00:25:09And that's why I believe this operator phase we just briefly discussed is needed, but only temporarily.

00:25:19We talked about this, and I just thought about it.

00:25:21Okay, the thing.

00:25:22Now, using Neo as an example, they explained what protective mechanisms exist so that he does not harm his owner and what data protection they have.

00:25:29We also wanted to touch a bit on privacy shortly.

00:25:31And then I was just thinking, while you're at work.

00:25:34And so Neos should tidy up, the person who is kind of behind him could also say,

00:25:39oh look, that’s a nice Apple Vision Pro. Let me go to the

00:25:42computer, print me a shipping ticket and I don’t know, sell the thing

00:25:47or, or whatever else, or here are passwords where my, should

00:25:51people take some notes, yeah, or appointments, it’s not just

00:25:55about whether I see a nice face; usually, I also get enough information about the

00:25:59stuff that exists around you to draw conclusions based on

00:26:03the idea, is it worth diving in there? The thief gets in, the operator transforms?

00:26:07So there are thousands of things you can do, it feels. Yeah, yeah. But I

00:26:12would say one must be open to it, otherwise it will probably take a long time,

00:26:16before we get anything like that. Yeah, yeah, I mean, good too. One must always

00:26:20ask, one doesn’t have to, some must be open to it. So I am also

00:26:23again, the technology is crazy, maybe like you and me, there might be some

00:26:27who can accept it, everyone has to do it, right? Yes, not everyone has to accept it.

00:26:30My wife didn't think it was that cool either.

00:26:31Yeah, but you move around so well that, yeah, I had thoughts when you brought up the topic

00:26:35with the security logic that they recommend.

00:26:37Of course, I immediately thought of Asimov's laws of robotics.

00:26:41It's never that simple.

00:26:43And I mean, if you have an operator in the background and now you have the topic of clown,

00:26:46just described, can't the operator still take the hammer and somehow

00:26:52hit you in bed?

00:26:54Well, I mean, let's put it this way, that, well, at least if you consider the speed

00:27:00So if you see the robot running, then it looks pretty much like me. It's thinner, but since it just ran into my back,

00:27:07I move just like it does.

00:27:08From the side, I could pass very well. I think,

00:27:12no. And the second thing, if you see how it tries to crack a nut. There's a video where you see it trying to help in the kitchen.

00:27:19And then the cook says, yeah, let's chop this and says, I can't chop because I can't take a knife in my hand.

00:27:24You're a great help in the kitchen, and it also said, crack this walnut for me

00:27:28and couldn't do it.

00:27:29In the end, the operator just threw the walnuts on the floor over the worker,

00:27:34because it couldn't manage to crack the nut with its fingers, because it didn't

00:27:37activate enough power in the motors and from the side, I think it could

00:27:43keep hitting you with a basically blunt object until it really causes you pain

00:27:50can.

00:27:51we also tried something like arm wrestling. Arm wrestling doesn't work either. She immediately said,

00:27:55oh, I'm scared, I might break something. Yeah, but those might be versions

00:27:591. I mean, that's still enough. On social media, there was a picture where someone

00:28:04said, the last face you see, then you see the robot face and there

00:28:08below is a pillow. Along the lines of, at least it was enough for the pillow.

00:28:13Yeah, that's right, he only wanted to accidentally fluff the pillow.

00:28:17Your subscription has expired, right? Do you want to renew or do I need a new master?

00:28:22Yeah, that's cool too. When the subscription runs out, that moment when he wanted to gently lift your head

00:28:27and then before that, the Ako is off, when he holds the pillow over you

00:28:31and then writes in the subscription above you. Yeah, but I think I want to do it myself...

00:28:35So, now if I think about the James Bond movies or other reaction movies I've seen,

00:28:39sometimes a little needle is enough, which I stick at a certain point somewhere in the body

00:28:44and then the other person is dead or acupunctured, so they can't move anymore.

00:28:49So I think, yeah, this topic of safety and if we now briefly go to the privacy topic,

00:28:58you really have to be ready to say, I have a device running around that looks like a machine,

00:29:06that can do everything in my household, that sees everything in my household.

00:29:13And I'm not a hundred percent sure about this machine, whether someone is actually back there

00:29:20peering through the camera's eyes, look, because I might not really know

00:29:24if the operator is currently in the situation, who is...

00:29:26You supposedly see that with Neo at the light on the ear.

00:29:29You apparently get an LED display, when it believes it can be alone and

00:29:34when maybe a trickster is behind it or a trickster in it, who is currently

00:29:39Done for you.

00:29:40So you always do this when I'm shooting on the couch and watching something and Neo is standing behind me, I have to quickly turn around to come quickly.

00:29:47They switched it, and then the machine switches back again or the operator figures out how to switch it.

00:29:53Yeah, well, but we also know from the meter reading and so on that the whole issue is about covering diodes and overwriting diodes.

00:29:59I would say that I would initially assume it works well and that they also have an interest in quickly fixing things that arise,

00:30:08but it remains that in 2026, nothing will happen autonomously; everything will be operated by an operator.

00:30:19They won't sell millions of devices; it will be interesting to see when, let's say, the first things really come to light.

00:30:28But while you were talking about it, you have to find people, rather the sentence you said earlier, not everyone has to buy in.

00:30:35We find it interesting, to be honest, I mean.

00:30:38While I would rather have the Tesla Optimus, more related to the car that is standing in front of my door.

00:30:43Because I still find it a bit more futuristic.

00:30:47Than Neo, but if there is such a thing here, honestly.

00:30:52Here is paper, here is Apple Pay, here is credit card, come forth maybe in a monthly subscription because then you can.

00:30:59Surely also quickly get rid of it because I assume that what is built in, just like the first iPhone, the first Apple Watch, the first Vision Pro, will also receive updates relatively quickly.

00:31:13Yeah, I mean, just look at how the Optimus suddenly, like Nylon, showed,

00:31:21after the mode, it can crack an egg, how delicately it can hold an egg to then crack it.

00:31:27Or the story where this Tesla event was, where they also had a lot of operators controlling that robot.

00:31:35And it moves a bit smoother than Neo.

00:31:38From that perspective, I believe there's still a lot of music left, and one should be excited to see.

00:31:42How they implement things in hardware, but also in execution, but also in

00:31:47control, but also in data protection, in all these areas. It's new ground for everyone.

00:31:52So I believe, yes, definitely. So I believe with a forecast for 2026, in the household sector

00:31:59I'm with you. I think it's always good to look at such advancements from other manufacturers,

00:32:04like Figures or something, who are also testing robots, I believe, already in some experimental

00:32:09lab situations, because there in the Bem-Bem prototyping or something, where it really comes down to

00:32:15attaching parts to a car or something. Until now, this was always done with

00:32:20robotic arms quite well, the question arises, why do I need a humanoid

00:32:24robot? Part of it is of course, when I'm in such a production field environment,

00:32:28I can, of course, also shift work-hate. The robotic arm is relatively static

00:32:33in its, in its activity. I can take a humanoid robot that I might

00:32:38also actually give a limited field where it can first learn or in training data

00:32:43specifically uploaded for the situation, so that it just does it perfectly. I can

00:32:47of course also use it very, very quickly in other situations, because it can

00:32:49I can just let it walk over, I don't even need the forklift

00:32:54John or Ui, which basically brings the robot army over. Therefore, it is of course

00:32:58this humanoid form is really interesting and therefore there is no question that

00:33:01also, let's say the projected numbers for what kind of market this will be in the future,

00:33:07are also staggering. It goes into billion growth rates, so also with

00:33:1220, 30 percent increases every year, predicted already for next year somehow. It's always

00:33:17again the predictions, it's a market of 20 billion, then the other one is already a

00:33:20market of 100 billion or something for the year 2026. Yes, there is definitely potential in this

00:33:28humanoid robots. Household sector, for the statements, it will take a moment, will

00:33:35also take a moment because this topic of security, especially in the European area, I believe

00:33:40is still rightly addressed, saying that there will be much better

00:33:46solutions coming that are actually safe. And on the other side,

00:33:50this topic, let's say, this operator in the background, I believe, from an experience perspective

00:33:59also really has to be taken into account. Isn't this more of a service that

00:34:03I could... I can well imagine that there could also be meaningful situations

00:34:07where you might intentionally add this or something like that. Or I say,

00:34:10I want to enable this independently now. So I can't imagine that

00:34:14I would want this... So from a visibility, from a UX perspective,

00:34:17I simply find it not good if this were to happen spontaneously. Rather, I would

00:34:24wish that I could say, okay, the robot notices now that the roof is in such a situation

00:34:30and he would have to, for me to accept this, I would then say, okay, I can now

00:34:36and I would also like to have it a bit cheaper at that moment because you learn

00:34:41you're now allowed to do this for a temporary period.

00:34:48now connect you here and resolve this situation. For that, you'll get the robot cheaper next time or something like that.

00:34:52But you know why this reminded me? It's because of the scene,

00:34:57that I already told you about. I know we shouldn't always talk so much about old stuff

00:35:00but in this case, it was the topic of the census, where everyone, I have to pass by there

00:35:06and now they're all doing it here via path and you know what I mean, and besides on the other

00:35:10there are also plenty of people, and I'm not saying it always affects others, it affects me too

00:35:15just the same, that you say there are features your technology provides that you haven't fully

00:35:20grasped yet, which you enjoy consuming. When you then find out,

00:35:25what goes on behind the scenes, you start to think, you don't really know if this was always good in the past.

00:35:29From that perspective, I would also assume that depending on how it's presented in the media,

00:35:34depending on how it's conveyed. Yes,

00:35:39Well, I mean, Neo didn't lie to us, but the moment, what is a complex activity, is currently a hundred percent, just hasn't fallen.

00:35:48And how many people just say, look, that's a robot, how cool, I want one too, yeah, that's great.

00:35:53Look at what it can do, that's amazing.

00:35:55Yes, and for that the prices, I mean I'm not saying I want to come off as a big shot,

00:36:00but if something like that costs 20,000 euros, I would have estimated it to be more expensive.

00:36:05And I mean, we are aware of this. You sent it to me first. There are also, let's say,

00:36:12affordable models that really work autonomously, handling certain work packages

00:36:17and they cost only a fraction. You sent me that thing called Boomi or whatever it's called,

00:36:23a kind of miniature robot, costs about 1,200 euros and that thing can,

00:36:28well, if I'm struggling, it can also watch my tent, can carry things,

00:36:33because it always snaps onto my back and I can hold my GoPro while jogging to vlog.

00:36:40Of course, it's cool if it can be there in principle.

00:36:42One doesn't really know these days anymore what incorporates kai, something else, there were also videos of children riding around with these things,

00:36:48similar to dog robbers running around in China somewhere.

00:36:53No idea if that's then generated, I don't know these days, some of it is generated, by the way, also nice.

00:36:58Neo has, of course, managed to gain a bit of attention through this marketing campaign as well,

00:37:02at least in AI circles.

00:37:05It then also became a trend to create AI-generated self-portraits as Neo robots.

00:37:13So you take your own picture, upload it, and generate a Neo robot from it,

00:37:17that looks like you.

00:37:18Mostly it was just the hair or something, because then you would save your choice for free

00:37:22in the end.

00:37:23But they definitely hit the marketing drum well.

00:37:25stirred, so that the topic is already prominent in certain circles and I agree with you,

00:37:31that's not going away anymore. It won't go away, just like ChatGPT has replaced Google,

00:37:38many workflows are being automated with AI, like essentially Vibecoding becoming the new programming language

00:37:47that anyone should be able to program applications without programming knowledge

00:37:52We have so many things that are just the men and that's another topic. We are now really close to this level, where we will have robots around us.

00:38:07Because the price point is no longer such that I have to be a company to afford a robot, but just as you described, it's in the range of a small car and that's just the beginning.

00:38:20Yes, that means in 5 years these things might cost 1000 euros or so, yes, even less.

00:38:26And by then, many of the questions will be resolved and also actually regarding the geopolitical situation that we have a bit,

00:38:32many data security issues, I believe, will also be solved differently.

00:38:35Because just today I think I read something again where it was about,

00:38:39that someone was accessing the internet connection of his household vacuum cleaner robot,

00:38:44so the regular vacuum robot that somehow came from China had a problem,

00:38:48And then the thing worked, it just no longer does, or it was switched off remotely because the data was no longer transmitted to China.

00:38:58What I found quite interesting last week, I believe, in Sweden-Norway I also read, it was, it was in a completely different field about buses.

00:39:09And they can also, the Norwegian-Swedish, I need to read up on that later,

00:39:14transport company somehow conducted a test in a tunnel, a secret test and also found out,

00:39:21that this bus has been transmitting secret information to Asia the whole time.

00:39:30So that means, yes, there are these data security issues.

00:39:36That is the good thing about Europe, to also hold up a flag for Europe.

00:39:42Even if that sometimes makes us feel a bit slower at certain innovations in some places, that is

00:39:52not bad at all, that we take a closer look, regulate a bit more than maybe in one or another case.

00:39:58Because if I’m honest,

00:40:00when we then afterwards

00:40:02actually have robots all around us,

00:40:06then they should not become a Terminator too quickly either by themselves or because

00:40:12potentially they are enhanced by some operators around the world, so somehow becoming a threat, right?

00:40:17Because you mentioned this territorial aspect, right, now just imagine, I don't know, 10 years from now, what do I know, yeah?

00:40:22What are just 10 years? Everyone somehow has robots; it has somehow become everyday life, right?

00:40:27Just think about how quickly the iPhone became commonplace, now not just because of the iPhone, yeah? Android did the same.

00:40:31And now we all have these safety mechanisms.

00:40:34This thing cannot lift heavy objects, it cannot strike you, it cannot run faster, and so on.

00:40:39Technically, it can do that, but it's limited.

00:40:42What we were just discussing is missing one thing for me.

00:40:45I don't remember exactly when it was, but there was also some hurricane warning in the States

00:40:50and Elon enabled, not Elon in person, yeah, but Tesla enabled people

00:40:55to unlock battery capacity in their Teslas so that they could better evacuate the area

00:41:00and not quickly run out of battery, because Tesla regulates the battery capacity only via software.

00:41:05or regulated it in those models, and then they were basically unlocked, and

00:41:10I just had the thought while you were speaking and pushing something into a state,

00:41:15the idea came to me, how cool would it be if you are, let's say, in territorial tensions

00:41:21and you don't actually have to send in troops because they are already there. You activate

00:41:27basically with the motto, you can now move faster, you can now be stronger, and by the way, you no longer listen

00:41:32to your code word.

00:41:34The time has come. Execute order 66.

00:41:40Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah. All these things, of course, are all really exciting.

00:41:45That is also important, and it is also amazing and gratifying,

00:41:49that we also have good European robot companies.

00:41:52We mentioned Figures, we mentioned Neura from Germany.

00:41:54It was also about not leaving the market of the world behind,

00:41:59but that we also have solutions from Europe to continue learning because I believe that the topic

00:42:04it will be important

00:42:06despite all the regulations, that we also try out a few things here, because you need to collect data

00:42:11Just like we described it earlier. One reason for these operators is of course that I

00:42:16can then collect data from movements that may have been difficult for the robots before, and that I can then train with. This can also be done with

00:42:22foundational models that can essentially replicate these robotic movements in the virtual space

00:42:25millions of times. That also helps them, hence this leap just now

00:42:30with the robots, that they can even walk at all, those kinds of things. That's all something that used to take a long time to train and teach.

00:42:35Now they learn this virtually,

00:42:40yes, every start-up can allegedly do this in their garage. You have examples of robots that otherwise cost 1000 dollars.

00:42:48There are also other things, where you can create open-source robots that are only about 30,

00:42:52many centimeters high, that can be made at home with available materials, like 3D printing, a few components, a few actuators, and a few electric motors to basically make a

00:42:58robot at home that can walk, you know? So there are many things that are totally crazy nowadays, which all

00:43:03are possible because of this AI boost we are currently having, in this AI age we are entering, which makes these things work,

00:43:11well, as they work now. That's, yes, what do we have left?

00:43:16As a conclusion, would you order one now if it comes to Europe or after all this, or would you say,

00:43:21ah, let it be, and especially what I would wonder is, imagine you say,

00:43:25ugh, it’s basically just my, I’m making quotes in the air here, it’s just my toy,

00:43:31I'll take it to work with me. Yeah, or I'll say, what he thinks, I'm also curious,

00:43:36if it all really happens, then I'll visit my in-laws someday,

00:43:40kids get out of the car, dog gets out of the car, wife gets out of the car and then says,

00:43:45the father-in-law sort of like, there's still one in there. Yeah, yeah, he's coming, he’s bringing the suitcases.

00:43:49Yeah, and then your hobby gets out. I think those will be really great moments.

00:43:54Yeah, great, is defined differently, you know. So I probably want to

00:43:58hand over a wish how confusing and disturbing that might be. Yeah, but I would also find it funny and great,

00:44:03but I'm of course also in love with technology. Would I order a humanoid robot now?

00:44:09I'm kind of back to the situation or to the theme we had in the old episode when we talked about

00:44:17the genius, perhaps, or the

00:44:20accidental genius of George Lucas and Star Wars.

00:44:24Star Wars, just as a quick recap also for the episode, it's mainly about if you look at the droids from Star Wars.

00:44:33There are a few that are in humanoid form, some are intentionally not

00:44:39And I still find this concept right and good, so I believe

00:44:44if you want to build trust, of course it would be great if I had a robot that could just do everything, it had to be

00:44:52of course in humanoid form

00:44:55But maybe the first cool robot would be like this wake robot you just described, wakebot robot,

00:45:02or whatever. Maybe a cool R2-D2 that can bring the chilled beer in

00:45:09its belly into the living room or something else. Yeah, or in the

00:45:16Dima can send to the wall where I am again later, like he can display the latest

00:45:21Netflix episode of some series. I don't know. I think humanoid form

00:45:26will be a thing, it’s of course a great marketing product. I’ll bet we’ll still see them

00:45:32in this decade.

00:45:38German households are looking at a good price. So by 2030 we will have household robots

00:45:44in humanoid form. I believe we will also have improved vacuum robots in parallel.

00:45:51Robots? Roboters is that robots? Yes. Roboters. That is the most beautiful word. Robot. We will

00:45:58see robots that are specialized for certain tasks. They will just have

00:46:06maybe no hands, not 1.80 meters tall and weighing 80 kilos or something else,

00:46:12but will simply be nice, sweet, rolling over the floor, flying around

00:46:18my house as little drones to monitor the house, in the form of an R2-D2, to do some

00:46:24small tasks. I believe we will see such things and then we will rather move towards

00:46:30a Star Wars future, where we actually have the small, box-shaped caterpillar robot

00:46:37that will handle the last mile for the delivery of Amazon, Zalando, and Co. for us.

00:46:44The chef robot, consisting only of arms and video cameras, that will prepare my meals in the

00:46:53maybe a corner in the shopping mall. There is already some of that, or the bartender robot or something similar, if we think about a canteen or something. It doesn’t necessarily have to walk around, it can move on a rail behind the bar and mix the best cocktails or something else. So I believe all of this will come now.

00:47:15So humanoid, sure, I can sell that well, but there will also be the in-between things,

00:47:20because humanoid will not always work perfectly everywhere and under the safety

00:47:25aspect, it might be smarter to not have a robot

00:47:31directly in the household that is bigger, stronger, and heavier than me.

00:47:35Well, heavier will certainly have some issues for me, but while you were speaking,

00:47:40I was reminded of Apple’s old patent where they basically recreated this Pixar lamp in their lab and the lamp essentially

00:47:50decides according to the motto, what does my

00:47:54owner need right now, the one I serve here at the desk,

00:47:58do they need light or does something need to be projected onto the wall, because there’s a projector inside

00:48:03or according to the motto, should I get a drink again, then the lamp will push a little something to drink towards you, it reacts a bit emotionally, it dances along with you

00:48:10you, when you're in a good mood, it conveys, I would say, joy and

00:48:16sorrow and concern and encouragement, just through G-Stick. There was also a very nice

00:48:23little film, if I find it, you'll be attached. Where I also thought, this is still, what is this,

00:48:27but totally cute. But the longer you think about it, what is possible with assistance systems,

00:48:34that you set on your table, that you let drive around on your floor, yes, the Roborock,

00:48:38it somehow now also has some kind of grabbing evening, that I don't know, cleans up the sock.

00:48:42So, motto, lay the sock here. If you ever have the Neo, then it can fold them.

00:48:47I do believe that there is so much music in it and just how we feel currently, at very regular intervals, new AI models, new, you haven't seen anything, are sneaking around the corner.

00:48:58The manufacturers are also coming out of their corners and will present us with robot-like things, which don't always have to be in humanoid form,

00:49:10succeeding, also just to see how it is received on the market, how do you bring the mental acceptance, do people accept it, just because we both tech crazies think it's cool.

00:49:20Yes, I mean my mother, yes, she also, at an advanced age, is certainly one of the first in her area to use her Apple Watch and

00:49:28if something happens with the robots and so on, then she might also be the first who then somehow says,

00:49:34yes, look, the postman may give it to him,

00:49:36before I then somehow have to go to the door, which might not happen so quickly. On that side, that is exciting.

00:49:43Yes, that is exciting and I also believe that, even if we were a bit critical regarding privacy and other aspects,

00:49:49yes, damn, the vacuum robots that drive around at our place, I also don't know anymore

00:49:55exactly what they are capturing with their laser system and their cameras.

00:50:00They are supposed to capture as much as possible because I don't want them to vacuum up my favorite plain and

00:50:04collectible baseball card, destroy it, or something else.

00:50:07They are supposed to get around well and do testing and such things.

00:50:11And of course they need an understanding of the room, they should maybe

00:50:15also respond to language.

00:50:16That's still a thing, because they don't understand at all why they always

00:50:18no one has ever used this vacuum robot, just with something like an Amazon Alexa, but with

00:50:23a decent voice interface, a proper LFM behind it, because that would be

00:50:28a great application scenario for such an R2-D2 series. Imagine you had

00:50:33an R2-D2-style robot that would roam around your home, with which you couldn't interact,

00:50:38like you can always do with Manus, Shet, CPT in Enhanced mode, and then

00:50:44it would also vacuum on the side. That would be great.

00:50:48And regarding data protection, think about the whole topic when the first televisions got their cameras or when they were evaluated to see if people were watching in front of the TV, were occupied elsewhere, or absent, so from that perspective, anything that involves microphone sensors or imaging methods,

00:51:10tempts companies to possibly use that from that side to get

00:51:17the things we've discussed today just in and expand on that, and

00:51:21at this point, I hope we're not completely naive, but

00:51:26I think as soon as something is available for purchase, I think I would want that, and if I

00:51:30just let it run in the basement, I think that's just how it is

00:51:34this moment where it stands there and says, oh look, when I grew up,

00:51:38Yes, we talked about it in the last episode, we learned what the Internet is.

00:51:42We experienced a pause, we experienced mobile communications, we experienced the iPhone moment,

00:51:47we witnessed the I-wave as it started, and then suddenly what I

00:51:52used to watch in my pajamas secretly because of some science fiction before Star Wars,

00:51:59we had no idea, there they were with their spaceship shaped like an iron,

00:52:03Orion, I don't remember that either, but it doesn't matter, where you somehow

00:52:07in hindsight, you know that there were a thousand people

00:52:10Yes, there were a thousand people in there, and you also experience that, yes, so science fiction is what our science fiction from back then is so real

00:52:20now or so incredibly close, all that’s missing is beaming

00:52:24Yes, we're still quite nice, but I believe it's more about the robot coming.

00:52:28The robot is coming, but I won't exclusively live to see that in our

00:52:32lifetime either; we really won't experience it anymore. It's just

00:52:34happening too fast. If we look at it now, we could also, I believe,

00:52:39loop the episode around it,

00:52:41talking about the steam engine, about these mechanical Turks that we just

00:52:47described, this chess computer, which, as I said, was around from 1799 to 1850

00:52:51that must have been the area. Then steam engines, all those things,

00:52:55cars and so on, which then came along, flying, also insane. But what has now happened in the

00:53:04last 30 years, in such a short time, since of course the Internet was already

00:53:09available for all people through the World Wide Web,

00:53:13with instant communication, instant knowledge, available, no matter where you are in

00:53:19the world, further amplified by the topic of mobile phones,

00:53:23with iPhone also having access to this information worldwide. Now with this AI wave,

00:53:30now with the wave of robotics, quantum, mechanics, physics, computers, all that is still

00:53:38happening in the helper sector. This is a crazy science-fiction feeling

00:53:49time we are currently living in. We are living in a time regarding these topics that

00:53:56super, super interesting are. Their own problems, and I think we talked a bit about that today,

00:54:00bring their own challenges. We haven't

00:54:04even mentioned the Asymoffian rotor laws again, which describe very similar

00:54:10things and which are often picked up by the science fiction as well,

00:54:14that no matter how well you set up these rule systems, they will always somehow lead to

00:54:18paradoxical situations with the robot. That's a very

00:54:22an exciting field that we are moving into now. But yes, we are living in this

00:54:27science fiction world. That's something that can honestly cause some worry and

00:54:35fear, in all possible areas of life,

00:54:39related. But on the other hand, not all science fiction always

00:54:45has a bad ending. There are also many things that are simply good. We

00:54:50just have to look at our modern medicine now. For people who lived 100 years ago,

00:54:56everything we can do today is also science fiction. And that doesn’t mean,

00:55:00not every advancement is bad and even this advancement, this AI revolution that we

00:55:04are currently experiencing, this beginning of the robot age, will bring problems with it, it will

00:55:09lead to misdevelopments, but it will also simply be amazing in Belongmann.

00:55:14I think we can agree that both of us wear glasses, that we, I

00:55:19let's say, in not too distant a past we would have had quite a problem.

00:55:23From that perspective, I also think that with the format we are aiming for, yes, also

00:55:29if we maybe tell this a bit more relaxed sometimes, trying to draw attention

00:55:35to how we think about what happens with the horrible dog, about leadership

00:55:41we will talk about robotics, we will talk about how to write software and I have no idea what.

00:55:46And there are also a lot of topics that we still want to cover in our,

00:55:50podcast episode, so from that side, we are happy that you are here again today.

00:55:55you have listened. Leave a comment, leave a few stars. If you are the

00:56:01What do you think, should your parents, relatives, acquaintances possibly buy such a robot in the future or not? If so, give them this episode as a purchasing recommendation. We look forward to it.

00:56:06to your thoughts.

00:56:11about every new listener, about every new female listener, it also feels good for us to see how this is

00:56:17developed, how it is received, to learn from the feedback and from Jens's side I would say,

00:56:22you can keep your shoes, you can keep your motorcycle that you don't have, to come to

00:56:28the introduction. I also don't have a motorcycle. Greetings to my father, who used to ride motorcycles,

00:56:33and from that side I say goodbye to the group. Hasta la vista.

00:56:46Welcome to ThinkDifferent, ThinkAI, the podcast from Mark and Jens. Two technology-loving minds who not only talk about artificial intelligence but live it.

00:56:58Here you'll find clear classifications, real practical insights, and a fresh look at what is possible.

00:57:05Understandable, critical, and always with a wink.

00:57:09AI to reflect on, to smile at, and above all, to discuss.